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	<title>Comments on: &#8216;&gt; The Painting is Firmly Attached to the Wall&#8217;: The Frustrating Art of Art Games</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.artfulgamer.com/2008/06/07/the-painting-is-firmly-attached-to-the-wall-the-frustrating-art-of-art-games/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.artfulgamer.com/2008/06/07/the-painting-is-firmly-attached-to-the-wall-the-frustrating-art-of-art-games/</link>
	<description>in search of the poetic and lyrical in video games</description>
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		<title>By: chris</title>
		<link>http://www.artfulgamer.com/2008/06/07/the-painting-is-firmly-attached-to-the-wall-the-frustrating-art-of-art-games/comment-page-1/#comment-3349</link>
		<dc:creator>chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 16:17:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.artfulgamer.com/?p=155#comment-3349</guid>
		<description>namekuseijin,

You make a lot of different claims here, but I&#039;ll respond to what seems to be your overarching concern:

If art compels us to draw upon the imagination, what are the standards of expression that make art compelling for us?

I think the degree to which you push the idea borders on nonsense - you&#039;re purposely setting aside the aesthetic and gameplay values that these games introduce in favor of a blanket categorization of art. The games of course have their own aesthetic integration; whether or not *you* found much meaning in it is beside the point. &quot;Certainly it&#039;s not high art&quot; - there is no doubt, but I&#039;m arguing that it is a form of artistic expression and requires us to take a less dogmatic, and certainly less categorical approach, to understanding what it means. That was the point of this article: understanding games as art.

As for my personal opinion.. I do not see IF as the beginning and end of &quot;true literary narrative&quot;. I certainly don&#039;t believe that the PC is any more developed than in other genres. And while I am sympathetic to the idea that IF has refined (in some ways) narrative expression, I have seen few writers take their time to explain just how IF is meaningful. That is the point of this post: offering a language for understanding games, rather than simply offering just another opinion of why I think [X] is good, or why [Y] is bad.

As for characterizing players of The Sims or GTA as being particular kinds of people, I&#039;m not sure that such kinds of overgeneric, empty, and frustrated name-calling offers anything new to the discussion.

I apologize for the rather terse response, but like &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.brainygamer.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Brainy Gamer&lt;/a&gt; I like to keep the tone of this blog civil and respectful - so please, in the future keep this in mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>namekuseijin,</p>
<p>You make a lot of different claims here, but I&#8217;ll respond to what seems to be your overarching concern:</p>
<p>If art compels us to draw upon the imagination, what are the standards of expression that make art compelling for us?</p>
<p>I think the degree to which you push the idea borders on nonsense &#8211; you&#8217;re purposely setting aside the aesthetic and gameplay values that these games introduce in favor of a blanket categorization of art. The games of course have their own aesthetic integration; whether or not *you* found much meaning in it is beside the point. &#8220;Certainly it&#8217;s not high art&#8221; &#8211; there is no doubt, but I&#8217;m arguing that it is a form of artistic expression and requires us to take a less dogmatic, and certainly less categorical approach, to understanding what it means. That was the point of this article: understanding games as art.</p>
<p>As for my personal opinion.. I do not see IF as the beginning and end of &#8220;true literary narrative&#8221;. I certainly don&#8217;t believe that the PC is any more developed than in other genres. And while I am sympathetic to the idea that IF has refined (in some ways) narrative expression, I have seen few writers take their time to explain just how IF is meaningful. That is the point of this post: offering a language for understanding games, rather than simply offering just another opinion of why I think [X] is good, or why [Y] is bad.</p>
<p>As for characterizing players of The Sims or GTA as being particular kinds of people, I&#8217;m not sure that such kinds of overgeneric, empty, and frustrated name-calling offers anything new to the discussion.</p>
<p>I apologize for the rather terse response, but like <a href="http://www.brainygamer.com" rel="nofollow">The Brainy Gamer</a> I like to keep the tone of this blog civil and respectful &#8211; so please, in the future keep this in mind.</p>
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		<title>By: namekuseijin</title>
		<link>http://www.artfulgamer.com/2008/06/07/the-painting-is-firmly-attached-to-the-wall-the-frustrating-art-of-art-games/comment-page-1/#comment-3269</link>
		<dc:creator>namekuseijin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 05:45:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.artfulgamer.com/?p=155#comment-3269</guid>
		<description>BTW, I was drawn to this post because of the picture depicting an interactive fiction session of a badly behaving and frustrated IF player.

IF is not a sandboxed pointless mirror of reality:  it&#039;s true literary narrative with well developed player character with its own traits, code of conduct and objectives.  Unless the game is about buglarly, you&#039;re not supposed to be creating havoc in a museum by stealing paintings or by ruining them.

It makes perfect sense in the context and those players willing to quit because they can&#039;t take a piss in the painting are better off playing The Sims or GTA indeed.  There they can be mediocre artists and record their fun antics to show to friends in youtube.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW, I was drawn to this post because of the picture depicting an interactive fiction session of a badly behaving and frustrated IF player.</p>
<p>IF is not a sandboxed pointless mirror of reality:  it&#8217;s true literary narrative with well developed player character with its own traits, code of conduct and objectives.  Unless the game is about buglarly, you&#8217;re not supposed to be creating havoc in a museum by stealing paintings or by ruining them.</p>
<p>It makes perfect sense in the context and those players willing to quit because they can&#8217;t take a piss in the painting are better off playing The Sims or GTA indeed.  There they can be mediocre artists and record their fun antics to show to friends in youtube.</p>
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		<title>By: namekuseijin</title>
		<link>http://www.artfulgamer.com/2008/06/07/the-painting-is-firmly-attached-to-the-wall-the-frustrating-art-of-art-games/comment-page-1/#comment-3268</link>
		<dc:creator>namekuseijin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 05:35:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.artfulgamer.com/?p=155#comment-3268</guid>
		<description>Once again, here we are, moving our objects on screen just like in Space War.  I frankly don&#039;t believe anything meaningfuly related to narrative or poetry can be taken out of moving an old lady walking around a graveyard.  

Is she visiting her late husband?  Is she looking forward to follow him?  Is she just having a nightmare?  Sure, this kind of imaginative, speculative dialogue is nice to try out, except this sounds just like the ELIZA simulation of a Rogerian psychiatrist:  you get nothing but yourself.

I can get nothing but myself by having imaginary dialogues with any piece of crap, including such pointless, non-narrative stuff.  It&#039;s like the authors are saying:  &quot;Here&#039;s the theme, the title and here&#039;s a paper and pen, now write it to me&quot;

Certainly it&#039;s not high art, which is not without messages or purposes like you keep talking.  High art is like jokes:  not everyone gets them and those who get, also get something which relates specifically to them.

This is more like abstract paintings or atonal music.  Yes: no messages, no point, so it&#039;s all up to you to invent hidden meanings trying to read too deep into an inconsequential author.

I prefer feeding my fish.  I can speculate whether they are happy or even if they are aware I take care of them.  Am I God to them?  Do they think?  Do they dream of bubbles?  Yes, very nice being an author for others, specially when I&#039;m looking forward for being amazed and pleasantly surprised...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once again, here we are, moving our objects on screen just like in Space War.  I frankly don&#8217;t believe anything meaningfuly related to narrative or poetry can be taken out of moving an old lady walking around a graveyard.  </p>
<p>Is she visiting her late husband?  Is she looking forward to follow him?  Is she just having a nightmare?  Sure, this kind of imaginative, speculative dialogue is nice to try out, except this sounds just like the ELIZA simulation of a Rogerian psychiatrist:  you get nothing but yourself.</p>
<p>I can get nothing but myself by having imaginary dialogues with any piece of crap, including such pointless, non-narrative stuff.  It&#8217;s like the authors are saying:  &#8220;Here&#8217;s the theme, the title and here&#8217;s a paper and pen, now write it to me&#8221;</p>
<p>Certainly it&#8217;s not high art, which is not without messages or purposes like you keep talking.  High art is like jokes:  not everyone gets them and those who get, also get something which relates specifically to them.</p>
<p>This is more like abstract paintings or atonal music.  Yes: no messages, no point, so it&#8217;s all up to you to invent hidden meanings trying to read too deep into an inconsequential author.</p>
<p>I prefer feeding my fish.  I can speculate whether they are happy or even if they are aware I take care of them.  Am I God to them?  Do they think?  Do they dream of bubbles?  Yes, very nice being an author for others, specially when I&#8217;m looking forward for being amazed and pleasantly surprised&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: LinkoGRAfia (26) &#171; Altergranie</title>
		<link>http://www.artfulgamer.com/2008/06/07/the-painting-is-firmly-attached-to-the-wall-the-frustrating-art-of-art-games/comment-page-1/#comment-3040</link>
		<dc:creator>LinkoGRAfia (26) &#171; Altergranie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 13:32:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.artfulgamer.com/?p=155#comment-3040</guid>
		<description>[...] The Painting is Firmly Attached to the Wall&#8217;: The Frustrating Art of Art Games (The Artful Gam.... Czym są gry artystyczne i dlaczego spotykają się z powszechnym niezrozumieniem publiczności przyzwyczajonej do zupełnie innych doświadczeń? Tekst świetnie koresponduje z grą The Graveyard, o której pisałam w ubiegłym tygodniu. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Painting is Firmly Attached to the Wall&#8217;: The Frustrating Art of Art Games (The Artful Gam&#8230;. Czym są gry artystyczne i dlaczego spotykają się z powszechnym niezrozumieniem publiczności przyzwyczajonej do zupełnie innych doświadczeń? Tekst świetnie koresponduje z grą The Graveyard, o której pisałam w ubiegłym tygodniu. [...]</p>
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