Comments on: The Art Debate - Does it Matter? http://www.artfulgamer.com/2007/07/30/the-art-debate-does-it-matter/ in search of the poetic and lyrical in video games Wed, 20 Aug 2008 03:02:48 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: chris http://www.artfulgamer.com/2007/07/30/the-art-debate-does-it-matter/#comment-632 chris Tue, 31 Jul 2007 23:44:36 +0000 http://www.somatoware.com/chris/2007/07/30/the-art-debate-does-it-matter/#comment-632 I'd really love to see more examples of good game criticism. If anyone has examples to show, please, by all means add them in this comment thread. That would give us the ability to work through these examples and show how we might develop new critical writing styles. I’d really love to see more examples of good game criticism. If anyone has examples to show, please, by all means add them in this comment thread. That would give us the ability to work through these examples and show how we might develop new critical writing styles.

]]> By: D http://www.artfulgamer.com/2007/07/30/the-art-debate-does-it-matter/#comment-631 D Tue, 31 Jul 2007 22:55:30 +0000 http://www.somatoware.com/chris/2007/07/30/the-art-debate-does-it-matter/#comment-631 I have a similar attitude towards Ebert: I respect his reviews, but it's his film historian persona that you really have to love. And plus, dude wrote Beyond the Valley of the Dolls. Perhaps this makes it doubly repulsive when he turns out to be so blind about videogames, or maybe the same comments coming from anyone with his reach into the mainstream would be an issue. And that's it, it's that when he trolls, everyone listens and you can't help but feed the troll.. I know I couldn't. And yeah, in a perfect world, we'd all ignore him as soon as we see him admit to not playing games. What you're saying is spot on. If there's something we can take from this, it's that we should be building up examples of good gaming criticism. Maybe 1000 tiny Lester Bangs is better than one big one, anyways. I have a similar attitude towards Ebert: I respect his reviews, but it’s his film historian persona that you really have to love. And plus, dude wrote Beyond the Valley of the Dolls. Perhaps this makes it doubly repulsive when he turns out to be so blind about videogames, or maybe the same comments coming from anyone with his reach into the mainstream would be an issue. And that’s it, it’s that when he trolls, everyone listens and you can’t help but feed the troll.. I know I couldn’t.

And yeah, in a perfect world, we’d all ignore him as soon as we see him admit to not playing games.

What you’re saying is spot on. If there’s something we can take from this, it’s that we should be building up examples of good gaming criticism. Maybe 1000 tiny Lester Bangs is better than one big one, anyways.

]]> By: chris http://www.artfulgamer.com/2007/07/30/the-art-debate-does-it-matter/#comment-619 chris Tue, 31 Jul 2007 06:29:12 +0000 http://www.somatoware.com/chris/2007/07/30/the-art-debate-does-it-matter/#comment-619 Thank you for the comments. -> Nikki: this is exactly the vision I have for some form of modern video game criticism! Somehow, we must develop a way of articulating just what is novel, beautiful, or moving about <i>certain aspects</i> of a game, and show how this is relevant for a wider audience. I have no specific vision of how that might be accomplished, but I suspect that Michal has a few ideas.... -> Michal: I'm very interested in your rating system, or list. I'd be more than willing to do something similar on my end, and compare notes afterwards. I've had the opportunity to play a lot of games (on varying systems, consoles) over the years, and <i>many</i> games have stuck out in very particular ways. I've always found the the flawed yet visionary masterpieces the most interesting. I'll fire off an e-mail to follow up on this. Thank you for the comments.

-> Nikki: this is exactly the vision I have for some form of modern video game criticism! Somehow, we must develop a way of articulating just what is novel, beautiful, or moving about certain aspects of a game, and show how this is relevant for a wider audience. I have no specific vision of how that might be accomplished, but I suspect that Michal has a few ideas….

-> Michal: I’m very interested in your rating system, or list. I’d be more than willing to do something similar on my end, and compare notes afterwards. I’ve had the opportunity to play a lot of games (on varying systems, consoles) over the years, and many games have stuck out in very particular ways. I’ve always found the the flawed yet visionary masterpieces the most interesting. I’ll fire off an e-mail to follow up on this.

]]> By: Nikki http://www.artfulgamer.com/2007/07/30/the-art-debate-does-it-matter/#comment-618 Nikki Tue, 31 Jul 2007 02:33:05 +0000 http://www.somatoware.com/chris/2007/07/30/the-art-debate-does-it-matter/#comment-618 I believe the real issue here is that games are not film, and while someone such as Ebert has much experience in critiquing film, he may have little to no experience in videogames. Some games are art, but not all games can fall into this category. I once had this art teacher, back in college, who could say something could about each student's work, whether it was the most beautiful thing produced, or simply a P.O.S. (Hehe acronyms!) Games which are not entirely meant to be art can have very artistic elements, yet fall short on the whole. The same can be said of film, which is why we have certain classics which we always reminisce about when talking about an excellent movie. This is true of many videogames as well. There shall always be that certain cult classic, eh? What would be interesting to see is the same sort of "Thumbs Up" system for videogames as for movies. It might be a load of bull, but then again, if we get fantastic videogame critics like we have for movies (wink wink), it might point the gaming industry to new highs and lows... I believe the real issue here is that games are not film, and while someone such as Ebert has much experience in critiquing film, he may have little to no experience in videogames.

Some games are art, but not all games can fall into this category. I once had this art teacher, back in college, who could say something could about each student’s work, whether it was the most beautiful thing produced, or simply a P.O.S. (Hehe acronyms!) Games which are not entirely meant to be art can have very artistic elements, yet fall short on the whole. The same can be said of film, which is why we have certain classics which we always reminisce about when talking about an excellent movie. This is true of many videogames as well. There shall always be that certain cult classic, eh?

What would be interesting to see is the same sort of “Thumbs Up” system for videogames as for movies. It might be a load of bull, but then again, if we get fantastic videogame critics like we have for movies (wink wink), it might point the gaming industry to new highs and lows…

]]> By: Michal http://www.artfulgamer.com/2007/07/30/the-art-debate-does-it-matter/#comment-617 Michal Tue, 31 Jul 2007 02:19:13 +0000 http://www.somatoware.com/chris/2007/07/30/the-art-debate-does-it-matter/#comment-617 This is an excellent post Chris. I agree very much, as is obvious from my two latest posts on the subject, that Ebert's opinion on the matter is not very important. Consequently I too have been giving much thought to how we can "put our own house in order." Mostly I have been working on a list of art games with ratings. I hope to have that completed soon. However, I am also wanting to formulate some type of criteria by which I judge a game to be an art game. I think this would help by giving us a starting point. Well, or at least giving ME that point. In any case, your argument is that the question around which this debate is centered doesn't really matter, and I agree. Though I'm still likely to reply when these things come up. But, as I wrote the other day... "...I'm more inclined to put stock in the actions of three prominent art schools and major galleries, not to mention the artists themselves, over the words of one (or more) jaded media critics. The revolution began a long time ago. The fact that the rest of the world still hasn't caught on to this reality is regrettable, but somewhat inconsequential at this point." This is an excellent post Chris. I agree very much, as is obvious from my two latest posts on the subject, that Ebert’s opinion on the matter is not very important. Consequently I too have been giving much thought to how we can “put our own house in order.”

Mostly I have been working on a list of art games with ratings. I hope to have that completed soon. However, I am also wanting to formulate some type of criteria by which I judge a game to be an art game. I think this would help by giving us a starting point. Well, or at least giving ME that point.

In any case, your argument is that the question around which this debate is centered doesn’t really matter, and I agree. Though I’m still likely to reply when these things come up. But, as I wrote the other day…

“…I’m more inclined to put stock in the actions of three prominent art schools and major galleries, not to mention the artists themselves, over the words of one (or more) jaded media critics. The revolution began a long time ago. The fact that the rest of the world still hasn’t caught on to this reality is regrettable, but somewhat inconsequential at this point.”

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